Transcript from THE TODAY SHOW
Aired Wednesday, November 26, 2003
Subject: Michael Jackson Child Molestation Case

KATIE COURIC, co-host: On CLOSE UP this morning, Michael Jackson case. Defense attorney Roy Black and Court TV anchor Rikki Kleiman are both NBC News legal analysts.

Good morning to both of you.

RIKKI KLIEMAN (NBC News Legal Analyst): Good morning, Katie.

ROY BLACK, NBC News Legal Analyst: Good morning, Katie.

COURIC: Lots to chew on this morning. As we've seen, there have been several developments in the case. First off, Roy, let me ask how damaging is it to the prosecution's case these new revelations that the alleged victim apparently is the product, I guess, for lack of a better expression, of a litigious household that seems to have been involved with lawsuits before, brushes with the law, possibly coaching the child to say certain things? What's your take on that?

BLACK: Well, I think the real important part there, if they can establish it at a trial, is the mother coaching the child to lie in the testimony or certainly manipulating the testimony of the child. And I've seen the lawyer on television, the father has said things about that. Clearly, we know that children are impressionable, at least until they become teen-agers and nobody has control over them. But you see that in divorce cases all the time where one parent is pitting the child against the other. So I think that's a real serious problem for the prosecution.

COURIC: Especially divorce cases where child abuse is involved. If you are a member of the defense team, how do you really capitalize on this, Roy?

BLACK: Well, you know, you want--you want to be able to develop what happened in that case. And there's this whole thing about the mother supposedly typing up and preparing questions and answers for the children. Any kind of testimony you can get like that would be a serious blow. And that's why in a case like this, one child alone is not going to be enough to convict Michael Jackson.

COURIC: Do you agree with that, Rikki? Do you need multiple allegations, or is one child alone enough.

KLIEMAN: One child alone is enough if the child holds up to cross-examination. If this is not about Michael Jackson being a pedophile, this is a question of Michael Jackson assaulting this particular child at a particular time, one is enough. You don't even need corroborating evidence.

COURIC: Rikki, what about these other cases, though, that this family perhaps reportedly have a penchant for filing lawsuits?

KLIEMAN: One of the problems, Katie, in sexual assault cases is we find that victims are vulnerable. They are people who are not strong. They are people who wind up in situations that you and I would not wind up in. The fact that the family is litigious doesn't change the fact that this is a young boy of 12 years of age who has illnesses--and I'm talking physical illnesses--let alone emotional trauma, that's the issue in this case, should we believe him? And those are the kinds of kids who often get abused.

COURIC: And Rikki, you mentioned physical illness. The New York Daily News reports this morning that he's in bad shape physically. He only has one kidney, and even that is failing. What kind of impact would that have on the case?

KLIEMAN: Well, I think it has an impact on how the defense treats that child. Roy Black is a skilled cross-examiner. He would know you cannot demolish this child on the witness stand. You have to be careful to treat the child with some respect, and say that the child was coached by the mother. If you go after this child who has cancer, if you go after a child who is dealing with a kidney illness, that jury is not going to like you.

COURIC: Roy, let me ask you, I know, as you heard, defense attorney Mark Geragos came down very, very hard saying that he would come down like a ton of bricks on anyone who tried to besmirch his client. To whom was that directed?

BLACK: The world. I mean, this is just over the top. I think Mark has gone far too far with these kind of allegations, but this fits right into the fairy tale of this case. I mean, look at this...

COURIC: But doesn't he have to come our swinging, Roy, though. Wouldn't you be doing the same thing?

BLACK: No, you can't say things that are threatening people. I mean, you can certainly say things that are favorable to your client. But this is--this is just like a threat to the world. Anybody who does anything, we will come down on them like a ton of bricks. I just think that's a little over the top.

COURIC: Let me ask you guys in closing, what you think of these videotapes of Jackson and Mark Geragos in the jet while en route to Santa Barbara. This XtraJet, I guess, company is not commenting. The FBI is investigating. Do you believe charges should be filed against the people who shot the tape and tried to sell it? I mean, it seems like a new low, doesn't it?

KLIEMAN: I think it is a new low. And I'll say this from the prosecutorial side, this is one time that the FBI is investigating, the Justice Department will look at it, and boy oh boy, if you are going to invade the attorney/client privilege, that sanctity, I hope they do get prosecuted.

COURIC: Roy?

BLACK: Well, you know, this whole case has an outrageous beginning. You have this press conference right out of "Saturday Night Live." You have Michael Jackson showing up with his makeup artist. Did you ever have client show up to get arrested with a makeup artist? Then you have Geragos' press conference and now the videotaping. I don't know what to expect in the beginning. But the whole case has turned into an outrage.

COURIC: But if you are Mark Geragos, Roy, and you are representing Michael Jackson and that mug shot, I mean, would you say don't wear all that makeup, don't look like that? I mean, it just adds to the whole bizarre nature of the case?

BLACK: No, Katie, I would have thrown the makeup artist out of the plane. I would have dragged him by the scruff of the neck back to the bathroom and washed his face and put him in front of the camera. It's the obligation of the lawyer to help the client in a situation like this and not make it worse.

COURIC: All right, Roy Black and Rikki Kleiman, to be continued, fortunately or unfortunately. Thank you both so much.

KLIEMAN: Thank you.

BLACK: Thank you, Katie.